EP34 Empowering Change-Makers to Create the World of Their Dreams


Pursuing the balance of business, planet, and community to help create a sustainable world is no small feat. For Heather McDougall, this mission starts with Bogobrush.


Cofounded with her brother, Bogobrush is a sustainable (and beautiful) toothbrush created using plant-based materials like coffee grounds and recycled plastic that would otherwise go to a landfill.


As you’ll learn from today’s conversation, Heather believes in a vibrant, balanced world that thrives when we share and learn together. She describes herself as a global speaker, mentor, and social entrepreneur who is helping change-makers activate their missions for people and the planet.


In this episode of the Persevere Podcast, we take a look at how Heather took her vision and built her personal brand. We also touch on some of the challenges that she has faced as a female founder in the tech space and how her message has evolved over the years.


You’ll also find out why Heather believes that learning to embrace your inner critic can help you overcome imposter syndrome, how you can benefit from investing in coaching, and some of the ways you can leverage your unique story to make an impact, plus so much more!


To learn more about the power of working together to move the system forward, make sure to tune in today!


Topics discussed in this episode:


  • A look at Heather’s legal background
  • How venture capital can push society and the planet forward
  • Insight into the Bogobrush origin story
  • Changing mindsets, one toothbrush at a time!
  • Why consumers are willing to pay more for planet-friendly products
  • The power of working together to move the system forward
  • Adding value to byproducts by repurposing them
  • Overcoming imposter syndrome as you build your personal brand
  • How Heather’s message has evolved as she grows her business
  • Challenges she has faced as a female founder in tech
  • Learning to love your inner critic 
  • Why you should invest in coaching today!
  • The art of leveraging your unique story to make an impact
  • Inspiration versus desperation when confronted with your vulnerabilities
  • Creating a mindset of abundance, even in times of scarcity


Learn more about Bogobrush here or stay updated with Heather by visiting her website. You can also follow her on Instagram and TikTok!


Connect with Persevere Podcast:


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0:00:00.0 S1: This is the Persevere Podcast where we help founders create awesome products and not run out of money. Hello everyone, I'm Patty Post, founder and CEO of Checkable Health. I started Persevere Podcast because I experience a lot of loneliness and solitude as a solo-preneur, and I know when to turn to... I couldn't find relevant content that was just what I needed for the time that I was in my business, and so I decided to start out and create content for other high-tech founders just like me. Today, I'm interviewing Heather McDougall, co-founder and CEO of Bogobrush. Heather is a social-preneur, an entrepreneur, a speaker, a yogi. She's a wife, a daughter, and a writer. Heather and I met a couple of years ago. She's another founder in Fargo, and I really enjoyed... I really enjoyed getting to know her, and I've enjoyed listening to how she has grown. She has an amazing story of traveling the world, living in really different cultures, and understanding how to do business as well as live in those cultures. Really teaches you a lot. She wants to leave the world a better place, and I definitely think that she's doing that with Bogobrush as well as all of her efforts that she does personally, and it is just an absolute pleasure to introduce Heather McDougall.


0:01:36.4 S2: Welcome to the Persevere Podcast, powered by Checkable Medical, and hosted by Patty Post, a female founder, entrepreneur, wife, and mother of three, doing all of the things. The strength to persevere in business is powered by passion, grit and hard work. The Persevere Podcast is for entrepreneurs and business leaders who set out to innovate and change the world with their ideas. Whether it's fundraising your startup, product development, marketing, branding, or scaling your existing business, this podcast is for you. We'll discuss everything it takes to persevere and build the business you've always dreamed of. Let's make it happen. Hi everyone, this is Patty Post, your host of the Persevere Podcast. 


0:02:33.1 S1: And today I have Heather McDougall, who is the founder of Bogobrush. Hi Heather, nice to have you on the show today. Hey Patty, thanks for having me. This is like very... Do you feel like you're on a radio show right now with how I do my intro? It’s great, and you have the background. It's all set up, it's very... Obviously, it's official, but it feels good. I like the setup. Thank you very much. I'm actually in my closet, it has the best sound. I like that because it's in our office, it's really echo-y and this makes for a perfect environment and I feel super comfortable, so... Makes it perfect. Yeah, I'm in the guest bedroom that right now happens to have two mattresses stacked on top of the... We have some interesting acoustical setups to make it all happen. And your sound is perfect so thank you very much, that's always important for a guest. So Heather, you and I actually met by way of the community in Fargo, in North Dakota, and we had coffee and we have kept tabs on one another, like rooting one another on, and I have been really impressed and super like...


0:03:53.9 S1: I'm gonna get emotional when I say this, 'cause I've been very inspired by you, Heather. I love it when you share just your teachings, what you're working on, it's so authentic, and first of all, everyone needs to follow Heather on Instagram and it's @hello.this_is_heather. And if you just wanna be lifted up with a beautiful smile and follow her stories and then follow her... Her reels too. I love your new branding, so let's get into it because I'm here, you have a global speaker, mentor, entrepreneur and helping change makers activate their missions for people and the planet. So if we can first start with you and your background and Bogo, and then what you're working on now, I'm thinking of three different ways to talk about you today. It's all about you and why our guests should feel inspired by you. Thanks so much, Patty, I really appreciate that. And it's like one of the awesome things, 'cause I'm so happy that I can be inspiring to you and to others, and same back, I love watching what you have going on, and it really is so important probably for everyone, but as women in this case that we are like, we can see each other succeed and cheer each other on...


0:05:13.4 S1: 'Cause it makes such a huge difference. Yeah, my background, I grew up in North Dakota, so I had the North Dakota sense, whatever that exactly means,lots of places in the world have it, but a strong sense of community. And I grew up in Jamestown, which most communities in Fargo are like... Or sorry, those communities in North Dakota are like this, and that it's very driven; the economy is very driven by agriculture, now of course, energy, more so even than when I was a kid, but I think I talk about that as being such a powerful part of the subconscious of me being an entrepreneur, social entrepreneur, and caring about the planet and caring about people. Because even if folks here aren't overall known as tree huggers per se, there is this really strong connection to what's going on in the environment, because the economy is directly related to what's happening with the weather and everything. That kind of carried me through, and I always knew that I was gonna be doing something with social change. Even as a kid and in high school, just any little entrepreneurial thing or putting on benefit concerts and just always trying to be on the move and help people. And I went to undergrad in Moorhead [MN] at Concordia, and then went on to law school, and in law school, it's really where I dove into so many topics, including environmental policy and legislation. I worked with lobbyists, I worked on victim’s rights of sexual crimes, just really...


0:06:50.7 S1: I often called law school for me a graduate degree in Liberal Arts. And I was able to get in... I went to law school to learn about the intersection between society and our laws and how those two play off of each other, and eventually found my way into working for a venture capital attorney, and that just kept evolving into how do we use business for good. It really opened my eyes to this powerful, cool tool we have in business. That is so cool, I think every entrepreneur at our core, we have how can we use our influence for good, or how can we create something that drives us closer to better? And I love from the social reasons and even politically, even if you don't agree politically, you can have your business if you're a capitalist or if you are Republican or liberal, if you are doing something to move it forward for the better, that it just seems so normal to me, but not everyone. You've seen that, unfortunately, that's not always the case in people sometimes you could say, I could give two effs, I'm not gonna say it, 'cause you might be listening with your child. I listen to a podcast with my daughter, but that's really cool, Heather, and is that how you...


0:08:14.5 S1: Let's talk about the venture capital piece, 'cause lots of people... I hear a lot of people saying yeah, I wanna get into venture capital and really? Now, why? It's such a fascinating space and that in any space, there's so much more to learn and for me, I really... When I started working for this attorney, I kid you not, on day two, I went into his office and I was like, what's the difference between venture capital and investment banking? And there's probably people listening here who maybe don't really know that difference either, but I really did not know what I was getting into, and that was exciting for me, but I knew, again, that I wanted to be involved with change and gosh, now that I think of it, I can hardly even remember how I got connected to this lawyer, just the way that networking works. But it's like this lobbying firm, I worked for family law, did a variety of things and then found my way here, and that was such a great experience because I got to see so many different businesses come across my desk and learn how to evaluate a business plan, learn how to look at a network. What so many people wanna get into, venture capital maybe for different reasons, maybe because it sounds glamorous or because there's a lot of money, but just like the early days of anything, it's just a lot of grunt work and I think for me, the key to finding a level of success at that role was just being a sponge and not forsaking my values along the way.


0:09:56.6 S1: So you see a lot of things come through that you mentioned before this. There's a difference between inventing something and white labeling of products. One is not better necessarily than the other, but there are different paths. And I would see some things come through that I didn't feel were pushing society or the planet forward, and that got me questioning, well, how do we use business for change in the way that society functions. And so it's like by holding on to my values of wanting to make a positive impact and really make big shifts, then as these businesses came across, I learned to evaluate the businesses for themselves, but then also in the back of my mind to be like, what would I do? How would I make this according to my values? So then with Bogobrush, did you... Where does the material science come in? So we partner with material scientists basically to make that happen. So Bogobrush came after I was working at the venture-capital firm and simultaneously my brother was in design school, and we've always been close and we would have conversations about how to change the world, and we then started a think tank together and from that think tank one of the things we talked about was how would we make a better toothbrush. And we decided, alright, now it's time to do something about it.


0:11:33.7 S1: We actually named our company Do. Like, let's create some action, and we explored a lot of different materials, which is a very, to me, fascinating conversation, we started actually with bamboo, learned after about two and a half years of product development that it is not the best material for a toothbrush, and really, we started all the way back at ground zero and got connected to folks actually at NDSU who were doing some really interesting research with how do you mix plant-based resins, plastics, but with other actual plant materials. And so then we brought all of our skills together to figure out how can we bring a product like Bogobrush to the world. That's fascinating. And then why a toothbrush? Tell me about the toothbrush side of it, is there a lot of waste? You don't think twice about a toothbrush and throwing it away when you need to. Yeah, one side of why a toothbrush, my brother and I just kind of laugh 'cause we grew up as children of a dentist, and so it's like this subconscious thing I think that was like, oh, when we're thinking about products, it was a natural flow.


0:12:51.9 S1: But why a toothbrush is it's something we use every morning and every night, and we really wanted to start with product that people are touching every single day, because for us it's, yes, it's about evolving and pushing the bounds of what a toothbrush is and the material science there, as much though as it is about how do we help evolve our mindsets. Because the more you start thinking about anything, it just starts to snowball, so if every time you're brushing your teeth, you're even just subconsciously thinking about the planet or thinking about that your purchase is helping your neighbor, you'll start to just incorporate those values more and more into your life. You mentioned waste and absolutely, just in the United States alone, there are almost a billion toothbrushes that get thrown into landfills and most of these are plastic manual toothbrushes that are not recyclable. If you think about a standard mainstream manual toothbrush, it has a lot of different grips and all sorts of different materials on it that really serve no purpose functionally for the product, and actually they serve a point because they make the manufacturing cheaper for the companies, but because there are so many materials, you can't recycle them, so they're literally just waste that are polluting habitats, toothbrushes easily end up in waterways and besides just taking up space in the landfill.


0:14:25.6 S1: So how can we make a better toothbrush for the planet as well as create a more enjoyable experience for toothbrushers? So when I look at... So if you go to, one, I love the convenience of the stand-up, that it's accessible, you don’t have to put it in your dirty drawer. I always feel like that are my drawers are dirty or gross, but you're saying if I have, let's just call a competitor out, Oral B, because we know that they're not listening, it doesn't matter, that they have a grip where your thumb goes, and then there's another...there's gold at the bottom, and then there's some other little thing, there is literally no functionality for that?  No, they want you to think there is, and maybe for some people out there, that is literally how they hold their toothbrush, but I’m going to use this pen, when you brush your teeth, the way those are designed is that you only hold it in that way. You don’t do that, you move around in your fingers, and so when we were designing it, we look to things like a pen, pens are cylinders, artist tools are cylinders, even professional dental tools are cylinders, because that's how you get the most dexterity and it creates the most simple form that only requires one material, and it just is a much better life-cycle analysis...


0:16:00.3 S1: Life-cycle design to the product. That is brilliant. And I did connect with you last week about... You've inspired me actually, because I had... I don't wanna take no for an answer and that's what you get a lot of times. People are like, nope, that's never gonna work and they hope that you go away. I hope she never comes back 'cause she's annoying. But when I hear this, I'm like, okay, there's how many toothbrushes, well how much in medical is thrown away, and we are highly disposable in medical. Our gloves, why aren't their biodegradable gloves? Why are all of the single-use plastics, none of them are recyclable? And it's such a huge thing to think, it's just going in our landfills and like you said, the river, we are drinking that water that is in the river, and this isn't... Animals end up eating it. It's not a good situation. It's a huge problem and from a founder perspective, everyone says to me Patty, it's cost prohibitive, you're not gonna be able to. So we have a supplement line and I was saying, I'm switching everything to also be US made, and I want it US made. Why would I need to ship it across the sea and why not make it manufactured here, and then why can't my bottles or my packaging be less bulky, and why can't it be recyclable? And they say it's cost prohibitive, you're not gonna be able to do it, and my belief is that there is a group of people that will pay a premium.


0:17:51.0 S1: What's been your research on that? Yeah, it's really all over because the recyclable biodegradable materials really are still very much on the front edge of development. There's a lot of stuff out there, but there are so many people just like you're saying, they're like, oh, it's cost prohibitive. It's cost prohibitive and it is more expensive hands-down to work with these materials, although I will say, even for us, our cost of goods has dropped several times significantly, but even just by learning how to use scale differently and pull those levers, we've reduced our cost of goods by over 65% in just the last few years. And there's... This is happening because people are asking for these materials, and so companies like us and you. Like yeah, it's more cost-prohibitive or it's more cost expensive, it's not prohibitive though, because people are paying for it, there are people who are willing to learn and put that out there. The research is that consumers are willing to spend up to maybe 40% or 45% more for a product that has environmental benefits to it. It's tricky, it's one those things like Made in the USA, we are also made in America and we love that and we wanna continue that, but there's these aspirational values that consumers want to claim, but the product also has to be good.


0:19:36.5 S1: And the product has to deliver something to them that the alternative won't in order for them to actually follow through on that values-based choice. So it's definitely there, but the more that we, especially as founders and startups, push the manufacturers to do that, that's also how we see these costs come down. When we started Bogobrush 10 years ago, like I said, we were trying to work with bamboo and we were overseas and it turned into a whole mess, we had way more waste. We’ve talked about carbon dioxide, now we’ve reduced our carbon footprint, we've saved probably over 60 tons of carbon from being emitted just because we produce in the US. Obviously, there's a lot to be said about all of this, but the more we push it forward, the more that manufacturers realize it's something to do. And I'm just saying all of this kind of history to say when we started, the people that we're working with now, literally were not in business. The manufacturers that we work with, they didn't exist, but somebody else bought an old factory and they saw that there was demand for biodegradable plastics, and we all work together to move the system forward.


0:20:53.0 S1: Yeah, that's what you have to do. And I have aspirations of, maybe I'll just start the factory now. Do it. You are on board, you're like, yes, put it in North Dakota. We'll get it here and we can all use it. Really, honestly, that's even a thing because it's such a niche space, even as we want to grow our business in the state, we've done as much as we can in the state, but because it's a very niche space, I’ve got to also go where the experts are. One of the things I’d love, love, love to do, and now we're thinking about what's coming for me in these days and moving forward is, how can we use the resources here and the people who have that interest to help sustainability in product design be something that North Dakota can leverage and build and grow. Oh, that's such a great idea actually with Ken from Finland has been getting in touch with me and I'm looking at some digital-health solutions from the Nordic, North Dakota, Montana. He's already working with Montana and he wants to work with North Dakota on how can...


0:22:05.9 S1: How can we do some partnerships here and... 'cause they wanna do business here, and if we can take some of their technology and bring it to the US, it's streamlining that, and Commissioner Goehring and I were talking about taking some of our natural resources, even if it's... maybe it's corn, maybe it's waste from sugar beets, waste from soybeans, can we use that to then make a material? But you had mentioned that we actually have people already that can make these materials, it's more the manufacturing that we don't have here. Yeah, there's so much really cool stuff. We work with c2renew, they came out of NDSU, and I'm not sure what's public so I guess I won't go where I was going with that but there's just some cool things that... It's not exactly what you and I are talking about here, but how do more plants...And it's like the byproduct of plants. The thing is, these are the kinds of materials that are getting burned in fields because the farmers don't have a use for them, so it's literally like creating more carbon dioxide in the air, but when you can take that byproduct and then process it, it's value add basically to that whole system, and that stuff is starting to come, but it's connecting in these kinds of conversations to demonstrate...


0:23:39.6 S1: Yeah, we can be part of that. I'm so pumped for North Dakota and its really big goals with carbon and a lot of sustainability things, and I think this is just another thing that we can work to add on to that, because I can tell you that there are people clamoring to get their hands invested in this kind of technology. We, Bogobrush has had so many conversations with folks who are looking to acquire and understand this technology. That's super cool, maybe we should set something like that up. Yeah, here we go. Get started right here. Yeah.


0:24:16.4 S2: There we go.


0:24:17.6 S1: We can tie it back to this and it's recorded there. That's a lot of business to start just with you and your brother, your think tank, and moving into women, and what you're talking about and the platform that you're building for yourself, you are a wealth of knowledge and you're inspiring keep with not only your brilliant ideas, but putting yourself out there to share who you are, and can you talk to me about... That takes... That has to be a process. And it's scary. Personal branding is very scary because we're scared of being judged, and I think from a female, my personal perspective, there are... I go in ebbs and flows and, oh yes, I am totally bold and I'm a risk taker, I don't care what anyone thinks about me, and then I will do it, and I don't know if something happens maybe a week later and I don't feel like it anymore, and I'm like, I don't... I don't even know what I'm talking about. Why would I give people advice? Wondering if you go through things like that? Oh yeah. You do? Oh yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. I work with...


0:25:32.6 S1: I interrupted your question now, did you want? No, that's okay. I wanted to see, am I alone here? Definitely not alone. And I think even folks who have built really large personal brands, which that's the goal, I wanna help impact people with what I've learned and just who I am. Each one of us really, we have our own voice, and I do believe it to my very core that maybe not everybody is meant to be out in front and having something to say on a stage or on podcasts, but every single one of us has a really unique purpose and voice that if we use it and tap into it makes the world a better place. But I think almost everyone still deals with that impostor syndrome, and I think it's because even just in our own business, even when you're pushing Checkable or for me, Bogobrush or anything that comes next, there's always that front edge, and the front edge is always vulnerable. That's just the nature of growth, and so in my own personal brand and putting that forward, until now, it's been much more of a side project, speaking and things I love to do that, but Bogobrush was always much more of a focus.


0:26:49.3 S1: And now I'm at a place where I'm able to kind of transition that to making my voice more of a priority, and so I feel that tension. Is what I have to say really important? Is it really different? You have this impostor space, as well as I do think… I've worked with a lot of coaches, I'm always working with someone who can help hold me accountable to the different growth goals that I have. And these are so common among...well, women; men, I think face it too, just in different ways, and the world is set up to empower men to be more bold than women just historically. These are just facts. So it's different. It's just a different dynamic. But yeah, when we face it, we wanna please people, we want to culturally, we wanna please people, we want to make sure that everyone is taken care of, there's that nurturer in us, that hospitality, which are wonderful traits, and I just work on, how do I trust that those things get heard by the right people? I'm not meant to reach every single person, but that who is right to hear my message will hear it, and just to know that I am speaking with the very best intentions every time I do, and if somebody doesn't like it, it's not my intention to hurt them, and I just keep going.


0:28:15.6 S1: I think Gary V says that he loved the haters. He leans into the haters, it makes him that much better. I don't know about haters, I don’t know. He does say something about that too. I think he also says, Gary V talks about that, that if we lean too much into the people who are just always raving about us or products or whatever, that we can be detached from the reality that we're not like, the bee's knees to everyone, or that our solutions aren’t the greatest thing ever in the entire world. They're wonderful and they're meant for a lot of really wonderful people, but I think that's kind of what he says, it keeps our egos grounded. So how did you get your... How'd you get your framework to decide what you were... So you’re speaking and you... Are you a professor at NDSU? Are you a guest professor? There I've done guest speaking, same thing at Concordia, same thing at UND, it all just evolves into itself, but it's the process of what is it that lights my soul on fire, and I work one-on-one with people on these things now because we evolved, you've evolved through different brands, different companies, and we get to these stages of what happens,


0:29:41.9 S1: how do I keep growing? What is my brand? What is the message I wanna be saying? Going through those exercises, working with coaches on what is my overall mission, and it's like I say on Instagram, really, my mission in life, I feel like my calling is to help us connect with each other and the planet. So I believe there's a spiritual thing that happens everywhere. Everywhere is spiritual, there's these things that the more we do that, then the more good for the planet because we're actually listening to what the planet needs, we're actually listening to what our neighbors need. So this feels like my calling and as I evolve, as my experiences grow, how do I allow my message to evolve? At one point, my message was really strong: hey, use your Bogobrush all the time, and I still love Bogobrush and we're transitioning that the next set of humans who know how to help the brand thrive at that level will be able to do that. What sets my soul on fire as well as what are my zones of genius. For me, it really is like being on stage, being in front of people, connecting with people, I love listening and connecting. So one of my edges of vulnerability is sharing my stories more deeply, so that it's not just there's another way for people to connect with me but yeah, zones of genius, what lights my soul on fire, and just who and how and what do I surround myself with to make those things be supported, and from there it just falls into place. You learn about new business models on where to speak...


0:31:22.3 S1: What things I wanna speak about, and the opportunities just start to unfold. So you have spent a lot of your life or a lot of your last few years in Amsterdam, did you do any international... Have you done a lot of international speaking? Yeah, so my husband, David, worked in the Middle East in Abu Dhabi for, I guess like a total of seven years, so in 2014 is when we started our international living over in the Middle East, and Bogobrush was in product development at that time, and I was still just speaking and doing a lot of other things, so I've really grown my speaking, my community facilitation internationally more. I've spoken on stages in Abu Dhabi. I've done community facilitation... Yeah, in Amsterdam, at universities in the Netherlands. I've done work, still doing some ongoing work in the Maldives, which are islands in the Indian Ocean. He afforded me the access to places in the world that had I not lived in the United Arab Emirates, these places would have been a lot farther away and I may not have gotten to. So just a community is where we are. Yeah, that's really where more of my base started, and now it's being back in the US and growing here.


0:32:48.0 S1: My last thing that I want to talk with you about is challenges that you have, just something fresh...Just a challenge that you faced. And with our target audience and target listener as being a female founder in high tech, that there are times that we wanna quit. And those times are like you might... Again, here I’ve had an emotional day, I should probably cry after this, you wanna go in the corner and you just need to cry and you wanna quit. And if you've had those times, what is that self-speak as you've matured into a woman that is, I can't say that we're all fearless, but it feels like we're fearless as entrepreneurs. What comes to mind when I say that? I think it was maybe even just three weeks ago, I was on the floor in my bedroom, crawled up in a ball sobbing, 'cause there was a hard thing going on with a contract negotiation that I was just like...I knew that it will all work its way out, and I think... But there's just that sense of, there's just something really emotional about it, right, it's like you're trying to do your best and it gets really confusing and it's just...


0:34:10.1 S1: For whatever reason, I think a lot of times, there's other narratives that start to come in. It’s you're doing something wrong, you're not good enough to...whatever. I call my voice, Larry is a girl. I don't know if you watch Outlander or if you've seen that series, so there's a woman, her name, it's like a Scottish Celtic name, it’s Laoghaire and she's...I don't wanna say evil, but she's the enemy in a part of the show, anyhow, Larry is my doubt monster, and she just likes to be mean to me, 'cause that's her job, and so I've learned in those moments to honestly love Larry. I really just see that side, see okay, this hurts right now, and that's because I'm a human and I'm having a human experience going through something that's challenging. It's a new thing, I've never negotiated this kind of a contract before, and I care so much about it. Okay, I'll just sit with it and I allow myself to see it, when those voices come in that tell me like, you shouldn't be feeling this, or you should be doing something better, or whatever it is to make me feel bad about myself…


0:35:27.7 S1: I just do my very best to, first of all, become aware of it, and then I just try to love it, it's almost so it's like another person, that's another part of me and you know what I see you, I see that you're scared, I see that you don't know what's coming, and that this is how you feel like you need to act out. It's almost like a child acting out because they don't have the tools to process it yet, so I allow these multiple parts of myself to exist and then I allow the more mature Heather, the Heather that can see from the future, and we will get through this, I will lead you through it. And I think there's this understanding that I've gained every month every year, I get better and better at it, but that all of these things exist at the same time, that the good and the hard and the more that I personally, just speaking for myself, but we all more than I learn to expand my energetic capacity for it all the more progress I make, because we're never gonna get rid of the challenge, as long as we're evolving...


0:36:42.4 S1: The challenge is always gonna be there. I'll learn how to negotiate this contract I did right now, I'll know, but more on how to do it the next time, but every stage is going to bring that vulnerability and to know that my ability and my energetic capacity to recognize the hard... At the same time as recognizing the power of my vision and the hope and the success and everything that I also know is real, then it just really starts to work together instead of becoming a horrible shame spiral that takes me down, it's an hour that takes me down and I can move forward in my leadership while also still feeling sad. Yes, I'm gonna have to give my, is that your ego? I've read that, have you read “Playing Big,” by Tara Mohr, it’s a really good book and she talks about your ego and about how to talk with her, and then she does a lot of futuristic thinking of where do you wanna go? So then I have that...I liked how you said future Heather talks back, it's gonna be fine. Yeah, that's a really good book that I'm going through with my coach, and the other thing you mentioned and I went over was you said you've worked with multiple coaches in your time and you recommend...


0:38:13.1 S1: It's an investment that I think that a lot of people, the investment of time and money, and what is your experience in coaching, why do you continue to use coaches? Yeah, I started investing in my first one-on-one coach, and I think it was right at the end of 2017, it was when... Now, I use this to speak on and teach on, but I had burned out so hard, I didn't even realize it was burnout, I didn't even... I was like, Oh, I care, I like what I'm working on. I care about my company, I can't burn out, it's like wrong, you are gonna burn out hard. And so I started there and I've worked with several different coaches. Just because as I evolve, there's something new that I'm working on, but I still... Each of the coaches I've worked with, I would recommend to anyone. They all bring out different things, and I think it's just that it's like someone outside of me to... I'm gonna say, hold me accountable, but not all... Did you accomplish all of your tasks today? I think sometimes, yes, like a coach I'm working with now, we go over some things as I'm pushing new boundaries and how do I set up my schedule, but usually it's more of am I...


0:39:28.8 S1: Living in the best version of myself? Am I really... Is my mental state, is my emotional state, where I want it to be, it's like a cross-between therapy and executive coaching, and I think it's so valuable to have someone on the outside. I've worked with coaches on intuition. So that was a lot of why I burned out is I didn't know how to really listen to myself. I did, but then I got stuck and I call that tunnel vision. I kept on this track, it was with Bogobrush like, oh, I just have to get through this part of the supply chain and then I can move on to these other areas that I want, and of course there's a sequence to things, but I was neglecting the way that I thought the leadership, that the direction should go, and I was listening too much to other stories. And I don't ever believe there's one one wrong, although I do believe we as people have a more empowered place of existing and that unique empowerment is our unique leadership style. So working on how do I listen to myself. I've worked with coaches on redefining my relationship with money and letting money be something amazing that I get to also hold energetically and not feel guilty for money.


0:40:58.1 S1: Money allows us to invest and to do really powerful things in the world, and so different stages at different times. I work with coaches to really help me keep pushing my, like I said, mental and emotional edges forward. 'Cause like you, we have big goals, and the only way you get there is by busting down the barriers that your brain tells you exist. Like yesterday, you had posted something about you were challenged to get out of your comfort zone, and I really liked that. So who, it was your mentor that challenged you? Yeah, right now I'm working with two coaches one-on-one, that mentor who challenged me, her name is Renee, and she is so cool 'cause she's not at the end of her career, but transitioning. She's built this empire in public speaking or professional speaking I should say, and consulting with some of the biggest companies in the country. And so it's cool 'cause it's a generational difference, which sometimes I like working with folks who are very closely generationally aligned, and other times it's nice to have a difference, but she calls me out in such a wonderful, supportive way. But yeah, she's like, you need to go deeper, 'cause in keynote speaking, especially where I'm going, and a lot of it is about our ability to tell stories, and one of the things is like we were talking earlier about our brand, I think I have a tendency I'd rather hear about other people then necessarily gush about myself.


0:42:37.2 S1: Makes podcast interviews interesting, so I'm always...just talk about yourself, Heather, that's what you're supposed to do here. So she's like, no, go deeper, really. Go back into those emotions. Mind the emotion of that story. Pull it out, draw it out. And so there's an art to this next phase for me. I was feeling it and I was hearing her call me out and I wrote in that post, you feel these senses like the lump in the throat, kind of in the gut, for me, it's like my fingers get tingly, my face starts to feel hot and when I even mentor folks who are trying to discover purpose or direction in their life and I’m like, that feeling, ask yourself, is that feeling from a place of inspiration or a place of desperation. And I try to... That for me has been a really good distinction because our egos get comfortable where they are and they know that they're safe right here, even if we aren't as happy as we want to be in the present, it knows it's safe. It's alive. So when we push ourselves out of our comfort zone, that creates a nervous-system reaction in our bodies, with our ego...


0:43:51.8 S1: So to me, if the feeling of vulnerability has a sense of inspiration, go towards it, if that feeling of vulnerability has a sense of desperation, stay away, because I think the desperation track for me is usually a signal that it's somebody else's story of what to do, and not something that truly feels aligned to who I am. And even when you're just thinking of topics to talk about or to speak on, I know that I look like, Oh, I wanna stay away from that, or there's... You have to recognize those, your chakras and where they're coming from. I found that a lot in fundraising actually is where I identified those different feelings and where I was weak or where I was... Desperation in my mind, if I'm raising money and I don't have any money in the bank, I'm fundraising from desperation. And it's even my pitch comes out and my ass comes out as super desperate. It's so true. That's even a thing with money is like the energy that we carry makes a difference and yeah, if there isn't money in the bank, there is a sense of scarcity, of course, that's there. And then that comes back for me, again to holding the container of it all, I get to acknowledge that right now there is scarcity, like we’re running low.


0:45:26.2 S1: And there's a lot of stories around that. There's also still so much abundance, and so how do I create that space for myself to hold the reality of all of it, not to ignore, not to pretend like that I've got $200,000 ready to do whatever I need. You’ve gotta work within this space, or at least for me, I really have to learn to hold all of that power and then just go forward into abundance, but the way in which fundraising, such a good example. What's the way that lights you, Patty, on fire to go ask for money, because back all the way to venture capital, it's a very old path and style of pitching, it's such... And some people, it really works well, but I remember reading Miki Agrawal, do you know her? Yeah, yeah. She's one who doesn't...She's a serial entrepreneur, really cool. Her current company is Tushy or Hello Tushy, giving her a plug here, but I just think she's a really cool founder, and she writes in one of her books about... She realized that one of hers is having dinner parties, so she started just inviting investors to a dinner party where she could be in her element and be in her full power and be who she is. That was pre-pandemic and probably she's in New York.


0:46:53.0 S1: So maybe there's a lot more investors around, I don't know. I remember seeing a video of it actually, and her talking about that, and me thinking I always get so nervous when it's a dinner party, I don't think I could do that. Maybe at a yoga studio that would be perfect to me, or at a spin class. Let’s all go, let's break down all the barriers. Let’s get a sweat on and then let's talk money. We get a smoothie afterwards and sit down and talk, in your mind is fresh and... Yeah, the style of pitching of standing in front of…and you're a robot and you're like, okay, the slides are behind me, I cannot remember my projections right now... What is my EBITDA again? Like a year, five years, four years? It always gets to that slide and my mouth just gets so dry, I'm like, where is water? And I know it's extremely important for everyone that's listening, it's critical to know it and to have it practiced, but it's nerve-racking. There’s still the reality of it, and it probably doesn't come across that way, 'cause you're polished and you know your stuff, so I'm sure it's awesome.


0:48:10.5 S1: And that's why we practice. Everybody watches. You do have to practice a million times, that's like... It does not happen overnight by any means. But a lot of it is natural and authentic, and that is absolutely why I wanted to have you on to talk about this and talk about yourself. I'm glad that you talked about yourself too, Heather because you are inspirational, you've accomplished so much, and you’re an inspiration to so many founders and I think just women in general, it's really great to see women achieving and then doing their company, but then stepping out and doing something on their own to inspire others. So I applaud you and thank you so much for being a guest. And this was so fun. Patty, thank you for having me and yeah, celebration to it all. Love it. All of you, I please encourage you to go to and also visit Heather on Instagram. Is there anywhere else that you would like our listeners to find you? I am growing TikTok, I have 15 followers now on tiktok, so here we go. What's your handle? I think it's... Hello.this is Heather.


0:49:26.7 S1: It might be hello.this is Heather. It’s similar. Yeah. Hello.this is Heather, I think. I have my website too, if you wanna reach out or send an email it’s But I love hearing from y’all, so definitely, if anything pops up as you're listening, just hit me up, I'm happy to chat. I love it, I'm gonna put... I'm gonna list them all, I'm gonna follow you on TikTok as well, 'cause I am on TikTok, and I love TikTok. That's where the trends happen, Heather, it's three weeks, a month ahead of Instagram, so let's be ahead of the curve. I love it. We'll support each other. All of you, I encourage you to go to, we did a rebrand, so check out our new website, and some new products coming out this summer, which we're excited about. So give this episode five stars too, on whichever platform you're listening on, and I just really appreciate all of our listeners. Thank you so much, Heather, and we'll talk to you all next week.


0:50:35.9 S2: Thank you for listening to The Persevere Podcast, powered by Checkable Medical. Head over to for notes, links and additional resources from today's show to continue hearing insights and gaining knowledge from those persevering, succeeding, and making their dream a reality. Be sure to subscribe through your favorite podcast app. Now go make it happen.